If There Was a God, He Would...
(Steven wrote this and gave me permission to post it here.)
I have heard many arguments from people who question the existence of God. Some things they say are: “I don’t think God would want to have so much suffering in the world,” “If there was a God, I don’t think he would want there to be wars fought over religion,” “I think God would not want there to be so much confusion about Him. He would reveal Himself more so that people would know He was real.”
These are all fair statements and other similar comments have been expressed by many people throughout the ages.They are thoughts that try to rationally and logically understand the world around them and how God and religion fit into the picture. The basic logic of most of these thoughts can be summed up as follows:
A) If there was a God, he would [fill in the blank]
B) The conditions of the world do not agree with (A)
C) Therefore, there is no God
There is a certain logic in this argument, and people can be forgiven for accepting it. I will agree with them on one point - the God that they have defined in point (A) does not exist. That is certainly correct, as it logically follows from point (B). This is the main flaw in this whole argument - trying to define what God should or should not be based on our limited, mortal understanding. The only correct conclusion to come to from the argument above is:
C) Since the conditions of the world contradict a God as defined in (A), the conditions of (A) must be wrong and I should consider other possible attributes of God.
Can it be possible that a God exists who does not conform to our expectations? Let us consider this. I’d like to present some other things that do not conform to our expectations of what should happen.
In the book of Revelation we read of a very interesting occurrence: “And there was war in heaven.” (Rev 12:7) Wait, war? In heaven? But I thought that heaven was a peaceful place. Isn’t heaven a place where God dwells and all his holy angels who sing praises to Him day and night?
And yet, there it is in black and white: “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels.” There was fighting! There was contention! There was disagreement intense enough to lead to battle.
What was all this fighting about, you ask? What was the cause of this war in this unlikely place? To answer that we have to go back to the beginning, back to before the foundations of the earth were laid. At this time God presented a plan, a plan that would require a savior as part of it.
Satan came forward and said “Here am I, send me. I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.” (Moses 4:1)
This is where the problems began. Satan’s offer was in contradiction to that of Jehovah who said, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.” (Moses 4:2)
So we had two competing plans being presented - one in which all mankind would be saved, and one in which some may be lost.
Now, why wouldn’t anyone want to go with the plan where everyone would be saved? Think of it - no one would be lost! Surely if God loves all of His children he would want all of them to be saved and to return to Him, right?
Perhaps an analogy might help. Picture a dean of a medical school. The dean should love his students so much that he would want all of them to become doctors someday, right? He would want this so badly that he would give them the answers to the final exam. Think of it - no one would fail! All of the students would become doctors! Wouldn’t that be great? I will leave it to you to consider the consequences of such an action, and whether you would want to be a patient seen by one of that graduating class. Now consider that God is trying to make more of us than just doctors and perhaps you can see the merits of accepting the other plan.
This issue was contentious enough that the debate between the two sides became the “war in heaven” spoken of by John, and ends with Satan and his angels losing their place in heaven and being “cast out into the earth.” (Rev 12:8-9)
All of this demonstrates an important attribute of God: that God values man’s agency very highly. Even in that premortal council everyone was free to choose which plan he or she wanted to follow - to accept Jehovah as our savior, or to follow Lucifer. It is precisely because he “sought to destroy the agency of man” (Moses 4:3-4) that Lucifer became Satan and was cast out.
Now you would think that God would not want to lose any of His children before the earth was even created and yet we read that “a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he [Satan] away from me [God] because of their agency.” (D&C 29:36)
Here’s another thing you probably would not expect: If God sent his only begotten Son to earth, surely He would not want him to be killed by wicked men. I mean, that wouldn’t make any sense at all right?
Hmm.
Well, we all know how this story goes. Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem in a lowly stable to his mother Mary. He lived a perfect, sinless life. He taught the gospel, healed the sick, cleansed the lepers, and raised the dead. After a brief three year ministry he was arrested, tried, condemned and executed by crucifixion atop Calvary’s hill.
Such a sad ending. You can be forgiven for asking “why did God allow that to happen? Why didn’t He stop it and save him?” Man, God sure does not behave how we would expect, does He? It’s almost as if God’s ways are higher than man’s ways and God’s thoughts higher than man’s thoughts. (see Isaiah 55:8)
You could almost say that God moves in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform.
That is, if He really does exist...
I have heard many arguments from people who question the existence of God. Some things they say are: “I don’t think God would want to have so much suffering in the world,” “If there was a God, I don’t think he would want there to be wars fought over religion,” “I think God would not want there to be so much confusion about Him. He would reveal Himself more so that people would know He was real.”
These are all fair statements and other similar comments have been expressed by many people throughout the ages.They are thoughts that try to rationally and logically understand the world around them and how God and religion fit into the picture. The basic logic of most of these thoughts can be summed up as follows:
A) If there was a God, he would [fill in the blank]
B) The conditions of the world do not agree with (A)
C) Therefore, there is no God
There is a certain logic in this argument, and people can be forgiven for accepting it. I will agree with them on one point - the God that they have defined in point (A) does not exist. That is certainly correct, as it logically follows from point (B). This is the main flaw in this whole argument - trying to define what God should or should not be based on our limited, mortal understanding. The only correct conclusion to come to from the argument above is:
C) Since the conditions of the world contradict a God as defined in (A), the conditions of (A) must be wrong and I should consider other possible attributes of God.
Can it be possible that a God exists who does not conform to our expectations? Let us consider this. I’d like to present some other things that do not conform to our expectations of what should happen.
In the book of Revelation we read of a very interesting occurrence: “And there was war in heaven.” (Rev 12:7) Wait, war? In heaven? But I thought that heaven was a peaceful place. Isn’t heaven a place where God dwells and all his holy angels who sing praises to Him day and night?
And yet, there it is in black and white: “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels.” There was fighting! There was contention! There was disagreement intense enough to lead to battle.
What was all this fighting about, you ask? What was the cause of this war in this unlikely place? To answer that we have to go back to the beginning, back to before the foundations of the earth were laid. At this time God presented a plan, a plan that would require a savior as part of it.
Satan came forward and said “Here am I, send me. I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.” (Moses 4:1)
This is where the problems began. Satan’s offer was in contradiction to that of Jehovah who said, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.” (Moses 4:2)
So we had two competing plans being presented - one in which all mankind would be saved, and one in which some may be lost.
Now, why wouldn’t anyone want to go with the plan where everyone would be saved? Think of it - no one would be lost! Surely if God loves all of His children he would want all of them to be saved and to return to Him, right?
Perhaps an analogy might help. Picture a dean of a medical school. The dean should love his students so much that he would want all of them to become doctors someday, right? He would want this so badly that he would give them the answers to the final exam. Think of it - no one would fail! All of the students would become doctors! Wouldn’t that be great? I will leave it to you to consider the consequences of such an action, and whether you would want to be a patient seen by one of that graduating class. Now consider that God is trying to make more of us than just doctors and perhaps you can see the merits of accepting the other plan.
This issue was contentious enough that the debate between the two sides became the “war in heaven” spoken of by John, and ends with Satan and his angels losing their place in heaven and being “cast out into the earth.” (Rev 12:8-9)
All of this demonstrates an important attribute of God: that God values man’s agency very highly. Even in that premortal council everyone was free to choose which plan he or she wanted to follow - to accept Jehovah as our savior, or to follow Lucifer. It is precisely because he “sought to destroy the agency of man” (Moses 4:3-4) that Lucifer became Satan and was cast out.
Now you would think that God would not want to lose any of His children before the earth was even created and yet we read that “a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he [Satan] away from me [God] because of their agency.” (D&C 29:36)
Here’s another thing you probably would not expect: If God sent his only begotten Son to earth, surely He would not want him to be killed by wicked men. I mean, that wouldn’t make any sense at all right?
Hmm.
Well, we all know how this story goes. Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem in a lowly stable to his mother Mary. He lived a perfect, sinless life. He taught the gospel, healed the sick, cleansed the lepers, and raised the dead. After a brief three year ministry he was arrested, tried, condemned and executed by crucifixion atop Calvary’s hill.
Such a sad ending. You can be forgiven for asking “why did God allow that to happen? Why didn’t He stop it and save him?” Man, God sure does not behave how we would expect, does He? It’s almost as if God’s ways are higher than man’s ways and God’s thoughts higher than man’s thoughts. (see Isaiah 55:8)
You could almost say that God moves in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform.
That is, if He really does exist...
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